"...and I'm going to run 2 harbingers, and have deep striking Landraiders, and Dante, and fast scouting Baals..."
"but they don't make harbingers, probably won't for a year'
"I'll just use Valkyries."
"will you convert them to look like they're Blood Angels?"
"no cause when the actual model comes out, I'll probably sell them.'
...sigh...
This seemed like as good a time as any to show you my entire BA collection, so here it is, whatcha think?
I would imagine the above conversation is being repeated allover the world @ the moment. I don't mind if someone proxies a mini to try something out a few times to see if they like it (nothing sucks more to spend $30-$50 to only find out you don't like your shiny new unit), or if something was left @ home, etc. But in general it seems anymore that when I go to the FLGS for the game, the same people have the same models proxied EVERY week, and they have NO plans to change this. "dude I always use my chaos marines as plague marines, except that week they were all Khorne berserkers..." I could just not play them, but I live in a small town with a small gaming group to start with. Being a veteran gamer, I should be able to look at an army that I'm about to fight, an army that I myself have I've played for years and know what I'm dealing with. I shouldn't have to hold my opponent's army list in my hand to try & figure out what the hell I'm shooting at for the entire game.
For example: My renegade IG took on the Orks this weekend. It didn't really occur to me till I was on my way home that literally every model in the Ork army was a proxy of something. The closest to the actual thing was a Battlewagon with an invisible deff rolla (because they're 'too expensive' according to the guy with roughly $400 of Orks) Here's what I faced vs. what it actually was:
HQ:
Warboss on bike w/2 power klaws, model used: reg. biker w/2 power klaws
Big Mek w/KFF, Model used: a reg mek on 25mm base with Kustom mega blasta, it was the one that comes with the Lootas
Troops:
a big mob of Nob bikers, models used: reg bikers
3X Ork Boys with shootas (20ea.) led by a nob with power klaw Models used: 3X(20) AoBR slugga boys & Warboss (acting as nob)
Hevy Support:
3x Battlewagons with Deff rollas, Kannon, Big Shoota & armor plates, Models used: (1) Battlewagon outfitted accordingly except for the Deff rolla, (2x) standard Leman Russ with no sponsons (certainly no size difference there, right?)
I really can't complain about all the warbikes, as the Forgeworld models are horrifically exepensive, although he could have made an effort to differentiate the wargear. I couldn't tell the doc, from a big choppa, from a power klaw, from a plain grunt, and so on. As for the Leman russes, they'd make for good looted wagons if an effort were made to 'Ork them up', but they aren't even painted, one isn't even fully assembled. You can just forget true line of sight, and the argument obviously ensued when the earthshaker round scattered off of the back of a russ, when were it an actual BW it would have been hit. (I held a russ over the BW to help visualize the footprint difference).
"but I don't want to pay for them!"
"then get them the hell out of your army list! You can easily make a full list without them."
"but I want them!"
Does this happen elsewhere? It's literally gotten to the point where roughly half of the armies that I'll potentially face on Saturday, are going to be proxied all to hell, and not because the player is trying something new. Rather because WYSIWYG doesn't matter.
11 comments:
Not to add fuel to your fire, but I think those kind of armies are indicative of a certain type of player.
I think a person's army says a good deal about them and how they view the hobby in general.
Each of us gets something different from the hobby, some the playing, some the painting, etc... but it can be frustrating I'll agree to have to face what you are facing each week.
Once you play against a fully painted army on a well landscaped table, it's hard to play against a bunch of primered and unpainted models that are stand-ins for something else that are stand-ins for the flavor of week.
WYSIWYG may not be dead overall, but for the group of players you seem to be facing on a regular basis, it doesn't appear it ever existed.
My best friend used to run IG with the grenadiers doctrine, when that was rendered obsolete, he just decided to use them as vets. Being a college kid with no money, he really can't replace all of his infantry, yet its almost all painted & looks really good. So considering all of the effort he's put into the army, no one minds the proxies. Technically my Battlewagon is also a proxy as it predates the current model by several years, yet all it takes is a glance & people know, that its gotta be a BW.
But for people to just buy a bunch of minis, put them all unpainted on the table & call them something else (much less every unit, every game) is just disheartening. It certainly wasn't much fun to play against. I just wonder if I'm hitting the burnout stage because I'm more often than not not being able to see eye to eye with my opponents in regards to what the game is supposed to be about. More often than not, it seems winning is the WHOLE focus, and fun is a peripheral objective.'Flavor & theme' are simply irrelevant.
Heh. I had to edit and then re-edit my reply. I got thinking about this and got a little ranty. I don't expect 100% WYSIWYG across the board, but at least do SOMETHING. *sigh*
So, the short version: Amen, brother!
lol, oh go ahead & rant! I did, makes me feel better to know that I'm not the only one that does.
I saw a great one down at the club on friday. It was a WFB lizard man army made up from goblins.
All credit to Archie who was playing the army. He'd added postit note banner to each unitsaying exactly what they were and what they had.
It actually made it quite easy to understand and he was only playtesting a list before buying the models, so I can let it go.
Your mate on the otherhand, I'd be having words with. Either that or tell him you're proxying you failed dice rolls for successful ones.
;-)
'you're proxying you failed dice rolls for successful ones'
lol, Awesome idea!
Trying something out before buying is fine, i proxied my hellhound as a bane wolf for a few weeks deciding I wanted one, but after I did I returned to using it as a Hellhound (the Bane wolf is in my queue to assemble).
I thought to blame GW's focus on younger players, however our youngest player locally is working on a white scars army that's mostly painted, so that's not it.
Personally I say that if that want 40k without any hobby effort, they should just play Dawn of War II.
That's the problem with having a hobby that so centric on one company who's primary goal is to recover lost revenue.
It'll always be the same until we keep the game but dump GW as the sole source of models.
I understand your thoughts. Many times it happens that someone needs to field a unit or two he doesn't actually owns at the moment, but to field an entire army that way all the time is an entirely different thing.
Imagine we would only bring blank bases in game to represent our units.. :S
Sadly I've seen that done several times and by as many people. A few empty bases mixed in with some swarm bases once in a while I won't complain about (assuming that they're scraping for points to flesh out an understrength army).Or as I said, to proxy so as to try something new is A-Okay, but neither applies to my above post. The guy whom I describe does anything but lack for minis. Just feels like the slow decline of one of my favorite hobbies.
I, being the "college kid with no money", really have to agree with this. I admit that whenever I play the Guard something is proxied. However, you can generally figure out what it is just by a simple glance. In fact, I've gotten into the habit of telling people what they're looking at, just to avoid any confusion or disagreement during the game. I believe if you're gonna use a proxy for something, it should be COMPLETELY different from the rest of the unit, squad, etc. just so your opponent can pick it out and remember "oh, that's the guy with the power fist". However, if you have a bunch of Nob Bikers that look EXACTLY the same and are numbered to "tell them apart", what's to stop you from saying "oh, that's not 1, that's 3", except that the real "3" was killed off 2 turns before. Not to mention, it turns the game from something fun to "lets look at a piece of paper for 3 hours."
As for the Ork army, I got into an argument with the guy yesterday in a class we have together (of course, he's a college student). However, he's not a poor student like I am, so he can easily afford to order bits or whatever online. He was trying to tell me that what he was doing was fair, didn't break any rules, etc. A friend of his, who also plays the game, was even beating on him about it. In the end, I told him not to expect to play against me in the near future until he gets a "proper army." I know there are others at the shop that will say the same thing, and eventually it will come down to "fix your army or don't play."
Maybe I'll start using Guardsmen as Terminators. That's legal, right?
'Maybe I'll start using Guardsmen as Terminators.'
Actually I was going to use that as a hypothetical example if he wanted to argue the point with me this Saturday.
But instead I think I'll take the high road (such as it is) and Da Long Ways Dezert Groop will hit da table to show 'em 'ow itz dun!
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